Dance and Music: Interview with Joh Part II

As a member of the entertainment class in Mali, Joh has made it his life's mission to share music and dance from West Africa with the rest of the world. In this part of the interview, he shares how he got involved with various companies as well as a deep knowledge of the instruments and dances that he teaches. They have fascinating legacies and continue to have an impact today in Western culture as well. 

Mariya: I remember going to see you perform back in January, which seems like forever ago now, with the Benkadi Drum and Dance Group at the JFK Library, which was such a wonderful performance! I'm curious to know, how did you get involved with that group? 

Sory Diabate:
Director of Benkadi
Drum & Dance

Joh: So the director and his wife - the director is one of my buddies. He's like my uncle in Mali. Our houses were just next to each other. There's only the wall between our houses. And we did everything together in Mali. We were in the same dance company in Mali, and all the companies he did, it was with me. Also, I was the reason why, I didn't bring him here physically, but I brought one of my students who fell in love with him and brought him here.

M: Oh interesting! So another love connection in that way.

J: Exactly! So when he created his company, he asked me to come help him. I have my own dance company, but I go help him sometimes. That's how I have a connection with them. A lot of the dancers also take classes with me. 

M: Cool! And I've read that you've also been a part of many other dance groups as well. How do you manage all of those different groups that you're a part of?

J: Yeah, see like I told you, here is the country of opportunity so I work with Malian people, I work with Guinean, Senegalese. So I work with anyone who is African and has a group and invites me. I even work with a Haitian dance company. Yes, Haitian-Creole Dance Company. Because life is a lesson - you have to learn. So even though I'm a master, but I'm still learning. I'm learning from so many different places. That's why I trying to get involved as much as I can with other people. If they invite me, I say yes. I want to be part of it. I bring my input and I learn something valuable, so we learn from each other. 

M: That's fantastic! Could you tell me a bit about some of the most common dances that you teach when you work with students?

J: Oh my God, there are so many dances. There are some dances that I call the dance of celebration like the "Di-da-di" like the one we did at your school. We have some dances that are for honoring people like "Kuku" for hard workers like fishermen. We have a dance called "Dansa," which is kind of like an initiation dance like a womanhood dance. We have "Gomba," which is the main initiation dance. We have "Soko," which is for little boys who get circumcised, so we save money for those people. We have "Kakilambe" to welcome the rain and all of that. There are so many dances that I teach, and I have my own creations as well because for me, if you've been doing something for more than 10-15 years, even if you don't master that thing, but you have be able to just be inspired and create some of your own stuff based on that. So I've created a lot of dances based on the traditional ones.

M: Interesting, thanks for sharing that. It seems like these dances are done at specific times of the year. How does that work?

J: Yeah, some of them are done at a specific time of year and some can be done anytime. They can be done for any circumstances. Like for example, "Di-da-di" is a dance of celebration. It can be performed anytime you want. "Dansa" like I said, it was basically for womanhood, but now they can do that for any type of ceremony as well. But something like the "Kakilambe" that's done for really only special occasions. "Tansolé," for example, you might only get to see once or twice a year. But now you can see it anytime. So things are changing! Before people did those traditional dances at specific times, but now they do them whenever [Laughs].

M: Yeah, that's cool! I’d also love to learn more about the drums. What types of drums do you play and how do they differ from each other?

J: Yeah, so many different types of drums. Let's start with some of the well-known ones. There is one called Djembe, and the Djembe is the one you play with your hands. It's made of out of wood, skin and string. "Djembe" like the word says, it means "come together in peace." Long ago we used to make the Djembe out of antelope skin, but now since it's hard to find the antelope, we find the goats. And we sacrifice the goats and we use that type of skin for the drum. A long time ago, the Djembe belonged to what we called the blacksmith and the blacksmith was well-known as the master of art. He's the one that would do initiations.

Djembe drum

The first time they had the Djembe, it wasn't made for musical purposes. It was made for initiation purposes. We have three steps of initiation for kids, by the way: from 1-7, 7-14, 14-21 [years of age]. So each seven years marks one initiation, so you have to go through all of those three steps in order to be a man or to be a real woman. During that process, the master will teach you about the drum vocabulary. And not only that, I just told you what the drum is made out of, so it's not like you can use any type of wood to make a Djembe. You have to get it from a special tree in the deep forest, carve it, and make a shape of the Djembe. The skin - you sacrifice the goat and you take the skin. Through those two, you are doing spiritual work.

The master will also let you know that the Djembe can also be used for healing as well. Even here, now, they're using the Djembe for music therapy.

M: Oh, interesting, I didn't know that!

J: Yes, because some people went to Africa and you know, Western people always try to dig in, and they found that this is helpful because of the power of the Djembe.

Also, before we had access to the telephone, let's just go with electricity, which meant that we didn't have telephones, microphones, things like that. People used to travel from village to village to bring a message. When we started doing drum vocabulary, we understood the drum vocabulary. So we said, "Since this drum is so loud, why can't we use it for communication?" Because everyone is supposed to go through that initiation, so everyone will understand that drum vocabulary. So they're gonna say, "If you heard this, it means this." This is how we started communicating with the Djembe.
We have another instrument you play with a stick. That one is called Dundu. Some people call it Dundun, but it's the same thing because that one is from many different places.

The Djembe is only from the Malian Empire. When you're talking about the Malian Empire, at that time there weren't countries, there was just the Empire - Guinea, Senegal, Ivory Coast, Burkina Faso, Niger, all the way to Mauritania - all of those were part of the Malian Empire. That's why some people call it Dundun and some call it Dundun because it comes from any different places. The Dundu is made out of wood, string, and cow skin, so it's different [from the Djembe]. That's why you use it with a stick. The Dundu has skin on both sides, the Djembe has a big hole in the bottom, so they're different.

But the Dundu does not belong to the blacksmith. It belongs to the griot, the jeli. The griot, the jeli, and the blacksmith both belong to the class of entertainment. They got together and said, "Oh, you have this, we have this. I think if we had this to this, it would give another color, it would give another beauty." That's when they started putting the Dundu and the Djembe together. Playing the Djembe by itself, they found out something was missing. Playing the Dundu by itself, they found that something was missing. They played them together and they found, "Hey, we're making a family now!"

Dundu; Dundun drum

M: The Dundu, because it has cow skin on both sides, you hit it from both sides as opposed to from the top, right?

J: Yeah, you can hit it both ways, but usually we put it vertically and you hit it from the top. But you can use it both ways too. Like in the "Di-da-di" you play it from the sides.

There is another one, a tiny one you put under your arms called the Tama, but Western people call it "talking drum." All the drums talk [laughs]! And I also play a Senegalese instrument called the Sabar. So it's different from the Djembe and you play that with sticks as well.

M: Ok, very cool! And I saw you've been posting some videos of you playing with your son, which is really great to watch. You're passing on those traditions to the next generation.

J: Exactly, yes.

Stay tuned for Part III of the interview!

From Mali to Boston: Interview with Joh Part I

Since going remote, Joh has unfortunately been unable to continue teaching my students African dance the way he did at the start of 2020. While remote class in dance cannot compare with the in-person experience, I reached out to Joh with a request for an interview instead. He kindly obliged and I spoke at length with Joh to learn more about him, his views, his profession as a dance and drum teacher, and the culture in which he was raised. Joh revealed that his real name is Sidi Mohamed Camara and Joh is his nickname. He grew up in Bamako, the capital of Mali in West Africa. To get a deeper sense of his story, Joh shared the following:

In Mali we have two classes: the class of kingdom and the class of entertainment, so I'm from both classes. My mom is well known as a jeli, which western people call griot, and my father is well known as a hòròn which western people call a noble. And that is basically my background. (If you wish to learn more about this, check out this link.)

Mariya: What was your experience growing up in Mali? Are there any memories in particular that stand out?

Joh: Yeah, so many memories I remember from growing up. So the first time I started dancing and drumming was at the age of 5. That's when I really started. I remember my family used to put me in the middle of the crowd in the ceremony and I would just either drum with my little drum or I would just be dancing.

When everything really started was through the organization Mouvement Pionnier. It is a group of young people that teach about cultural stuff and also social stuff as well. So when we have important people like the president or other people coming from overseas, we go to the airport to welcome them. It's sort of like the Boy Scouts here, but more than that because we do a lot of social and cultural stuff.

Also, when I used to play soccer, that's how I get the name Joh. So I definitely remember that. I used to play defense and the people in my town used to refer to me as the best defense player. Joh has two meanings: either "the ball stay with me and you go" or "you stay with me and the ball go." So that's how I got that name and it became my artistic name as well.

Source: https://www.mapsofworld.com/answers/geography/what-are-the-key-facts-of-mali/ 

M: Very cool, thank you for sharing that! So you already shared a bit about how at 5 years old you started dancing and drumming. How did you then take that and decide to teach it as a profession?

J: Like I said, my mom is well-known as a jeli and the jeli are well known as historians, and they are the ones who keep the traditions alive. So they are teachers -- traditional teachers. This is one of the main jobs -- to educate. So I grew up like this learning that way. It goes from the oldest to the youngest. They switch from generation to generation, and this is done orally. That is how I started and this is how I'm really doing it because if you ask me to write it musically, I don't know. If you ask me to play it musically, that I can do very well. So this is the way we learn -- orally.

M: So this is a natural part of the culture and your upbringing. Interesting! What brought you to Boston?

J: First, before I came to Boston I was in New York City. I came to the States through the cultural exchange. My dance company came here through a cultural exchange. From there, I decided to stay and just develop my talent. And from New York, I had a friend in Providence, Rhode Island, so we used to come there and teach at Brown University. And my friend there used to come to Boston because he had regular dance classes at the Dance Complex on Wednesdays. I used to come and help him to do that, and after we would go back to New York. We would come Tuesday, we would teach at Brown on Tuesday, then Wednesday we would come to play for him for his class, then Thursday we'd go back to Brown to teach, and Friday we go back to New York. So we were just going back and forth between New York and Rhode Island. Finally, he invited us to just come stay with him, and we come and we stay in Rhode Island.

So from there, you know, one time he was going back to Mali, and he asked me to sub for his class in Boston. So that's when I started teaching his class and I met my ex-wife through that. So that's how I came to Boston. I moved to Boston through marriage. I found that Boston was my place and that's where I am.

M: How does it compare with the culture in Mali? 

J: This is very interesting. The cultural difference is deep, so deep that I couldn't even tell you all of it, but I will tell you some of the important parts. One of the important parts is the "human being's way." How we can be together, especially in terms of community. In Mali, we live in the society of sharing. And in the States, we live in the society of accumulation. That's the biggest difference. We have this belief, "the more you give, the more you receive." So in Mali, everything is done by the community. I can give you an example: when you have a party, you don't need to invite people. People are automatically invited because they are already part of your family. Everybody's family there. But here, everybody is just locked inside, you know, in their room. They're not really a friendship society. That's one of the biggest issues.

And also one of the biggest things I find about Malian culture and American culture is here everything is about me, me, me, me. Like if you want to talk to somebody, they'll say, "Mind your business." In Mali, there is nothing like that. Like if you have a child, it's not only your child. Your child belongs to the society. Your child belongs to the community and the community is there to raise your child with you. So if you child does something bad, anybody in the community has the right to discipline your child. You can't do that here. That's one.

Number two. When we talk about education, education here is based on school. Right? But for us, it is based on the way you raise your child at home. Education starts from home and not the school. That's why the teachers have a lot of problems here because the parents just send their kids here with all of those problems and the teachers are in trouble, and there is not much you can do. But in Mali, the education starts from the house, so once you've been educated there, they send you to school. But you cannot go to school without being educated from home. So when you do that, and you go to school, you have to behave yourself. If you don't behave yourself, you've been taught already. If you do this bad, the teacher has a right to punish you. See? So you know that already because you learned that from home. So you know if you do something bad in school, there are consequences too.

There are a lot of good things here too. So if you say bad things, you also have to say good things. There are a lot of freedoms here, but that freedom is kind of like destroying people. Freedom is good, but too much freedom can ruin your life.

M: Interesting, what you do mean by that?

J: What I mean by that is people here just do whatever they want. We're not supposed to do whatever we want, we're supposed to do what makes sense. There is a difference between what makes sense and what I want. What I want might not make sense. But here we are allowed to do whatever we want if it's not against the law. But there are a lot of things that are not against the law, but they are against human nature. We have to understand that. That's the part we're missing.

M: Or people will take the law and interpret it in their own way to justify what they're doing.

J: That's right. I'm about to get to that too. Like the law sometimes prevents people from being with each other. What is the law? The law is some rules that people are meant to follow. We make the law. People make the law, right? If people make the law, the law is trying to prevent us from being with each other at some points. I can tell you that the teachers here are not allowed to discipline the kids here. If you do that, the kid's going to tell you, "We're gonna sue you."

M: Well, I think that depends how you define "discipline." There used to be a time when it was considered appropriate to hit a kid with a ruler on their hand. We've come a long way since then, but I think there are ways to "discipline" without physical punishment.

J: Yes, you have to understand that there are so many ways to discipline. Sometimes it can be physical, but not abuse. Physical does not mean abuse. That's a thing that people don't understand. Like I've been disciplined and I discipline my kids. Like one time, we disciplined our son, and we went to school and they said, "No, here you cannot do this. Blah blah blah" and I said, "I understand the law here, but the law has to respect who I am, too." I have a right to teach my kids the way I want them to be. The law cannot prevent me from the way I raise my child. That's the thing here. I love my kids so much. The law cannot love the kids more than I love my kids! So how are they gonna teach my how to be with my kids? That doesn't make sense. They are preventing me from being with my kids and not helping me to be with my kids.

So disciplining physically, doesn't mean like hurt the person. There are so many ways to discipline. You can talk to the person and when you talk to them they listen. Some people, when you yell at them, that's when they hear. Some people when you spank them, that's when they understand. There are so many types of people and the ways they can understand. If you use this technique and it doesn't work, you have to use a different technique. Here, the best technique is talk to them nicely. No! There are so many ways you can try because some people learn differently. So that's how too much freedom is not good. Teachers are scared now to discipline the kids. They have a limit. Once you have a limit there, you say, "OK, I'm done." So you give up! Or there are other ways you can try to help, but the law prevents you to do that. If the law prevents you to do that, you are at the bottom line, so you cannot go more than that. So who's gonna be the loser? You see what I mean?

I totally understand because I had this discussion with so many people. They told me, "No, it used to be a different way. Teachers used to discipline the kids, but some teachers abused." And those people are crazy. I'm not for that. How can you hurt the kids? How can you do that? Maybe those are people who never had kids, or never had love from their parents, or they are sick mentally. That's the way I see it because kids are so lovely. They are a gift. They are a blessing. So how would you hurt the kids? You have to put things in balance. Just like don't give everything to the kids, but don't take everything away from them.

M: I think you're right. I think there needs to be a balance in how we set boundaries. Depending on the culture where people come from, they have different ways of setting boundaries. Some parents are better at it than others. But the law is kind of deciding for everybody, and there's only one way to do it. And if you came from a different place, and you grew up with a different culture, your way is just wrong.

J: Exactly! It's not like in Mali we don't have respect for law, it's just that those kinds of laws don't really apply. Those are the biggest differences. There are many things here that you are just not going to see there.

M: Are there any good things that you like about Boston?

J: Yeah, so many good things that I love. Here, one of the things I noticed like if you have money or don't have money, if you're sick, you'll get help. That type of help is deep. We don't have that in Africa, especially in Mali. Where we are now, if you don't have money, you might die if you get sick. They don't even have a place to put you in the hospital. They need money.

Also, in time of help, people help here a lot. This is something I get confused here sometimes. Life really matters here for people. They're not gonna let you die so easily. On the other hand, they don't value the human being. You talk about life because somebody is human. Sometimes there isn't really a balance there.

M: It's tricky because I think in Mali there is more cohesion of ideas for how to live, how to treat each other. Whereas in America, because you have so many cultures from so many different places that come with their own idea of how to do things, it's hard to balance all of those differences.

J: Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff too. For example, unemployment stuff. The government can help people that way, but we don't have that in Mali. I mean the community is there to help you, but if the community doesn't have it, the government is not there for you.

Oh, and no matter how old you are here, you can still go to school if you choose to. That's really important. But in Mali, at some age they say you're done [laughs].

M: [Laughs] You've learned everything there is to know.

J: They're not gonna encourage you. I would say this is the country of opportunities. This is one of the many reasons I decided to stay here. This is the country where you can really realize your dream if you go for it. 

M: Do you find that there is a large Malian community in Boston?

J: There are not that many Malians here. There are some, but not that many. In Rhode Island, there are a good number of Malians there.

M: And do you find that because of that small or large number of Malians it is easier to maintain those parts of your culture that you want to keep?

J: There are good and bad things about this. I'm gonna be honest. If you have a lot of Malians in one place, there's gonna be a lot of jealousy. Competition. That is one thing that I really deplore, but it's true. It's so crazy because we came to this country and we're supposed to use the foundation of the culture we came with, but most who come here will lose that. Like I told you: in Mali, we grow up with a community of sharing, but here, since we are in a different place, we lost our part. It became like a competition like "me, me, me." So if you have a lot of Malian people in the same place, it's not that good anymore.

M: Interesting. So it's almost better to be more spread out than just be in the same place.

J: Yes.

Stay tuned for the next part of the interview!

My Foray into West African Dance Culture

As a wide-eyed college freshman on Brandeis University's campus, I was taken aback by the number of extracurricular possibilities offered particularly when it came to cultural clubs. I was first drawn to clubs that were familiar to my previous interests such as creative writing journals, ballroom dance, and a club dedicated to connecting over Russian culture. However, after a prescient dream one night where I was a participant in the African dance club, no joke, I decided to join that club in real life. 

The teacher was a Malian man who went by the nickname Joh and who brought his own drum to each of our practices. He instructed us in different dance styles from Mali as well as others from surrounding West African countries. The key was the transition between moves, which was signaled by the beat "pre-pe-de-pe-pe-de-pe-pe." It was the first time I had learned a style of dance in which the music spoke to you from the rhythm in this way. The beating of the drum and dance moves were like a call and response to each other, but without the use of a single word. Joh was amazing at breaking down the moves into their component parts. They were each full body movements that also required us to be synchronized with the others. 

You can check out one of our performances here: https://youtu.be/t9SUqx3VLbQ (Used with permission).

A few years later after graduating from college and only having the fond memories to recall my time learning from Joh, I came across an opportunity in January of 2020 to go see a performance with the Benkadi Drum and Dance Group at the JFK Library and Museum in Boston. Before the pandemic, they did monthly free cultural events. I had attended others previously such as a group of Wampanoag performers and a presentation for Chinese New Year. As the performers from the Benkadi group took the stage, I was drawn to one of the drummers who looked just like my former teacher, Joh. This was confirmed by the end of the show when Joh introduced himself to the audience and began to share phrases from his native language, Bambara, with the audience.

Left to right: Me, Joh, my partner

I caught up with him after the show and we reminisced about old times at Brandeis. I then asked if he'd be interested in teaching my students some African dance, which he agreed to do! Soon enough, I was seeing him regularly again. While some of my students were hesitant at first, Joh put them at ease and they ended up delighting in the opportunity. There is nothing more amazing to me than being able to see others showing genuine interest and excitement in another's culture.  

Onward Israel's Impact: Interview with Stef Part III

To conclude, Stef talked about her experience joining and working with Onward Israel, the program where I met her.

Mariya: Jumping back in time a little bit, when you were in Onward Israel, what made you decide to join that team? 

Stef: Before I made aliyah, I was a high school teacher.

M: What subject did you teach?

S: I used to teach Jewish Studies at a Jewish high school in Chicago, and I loved working with teens. The next step after teens is college students. So when I came here and this opportunity came up, I was like, "OK, that's a population of people I enjoy working with, the young adult population." And the truth is that a number of my students that I worked with in Chicago came on the Onward trips when I worked there. It was really fun to see them in their next stage of life.

Another aspect was that I love when people come to experience Israel. I think Birthright is a great program, but I think the biggest barrier after Birthright is experiencing Israel beyond the tourist bus. I think it's great that people come here and have a wonderful 10-day experience, and see all the sites, and interact a little bit with some native Israelis, and it's all fun, and maybe there's some learning content. But when that trip's over, it was a vacation, and a lot of people say, "Oh, I'm going to come back to Israel," and then they don't because life happens. You go back to school, you get a job.

Onward is this really unique opportunity to come back to Israel to have a job, to live in an apartment, to not always be on a tourist bus. Yes, we did some trips and we tried to get out there, but the bulk of the program was to give people a taste of what it's like to live here. It's not exciting every day because you're going on a trip and you're going to the Dead Sea, and you're going to Masada, and you're going to Tel Aviv to a nightclub. You lived in an apartment, you had to go to the grocery store, cook your dinner, wake up in the morning, take a bus, go to work, meet locals who were working in a field you might be interested in working in some day, come home, be tired, make dinner, go to sleep. You know, that's what normal life is. I think people often have this expectation of living in a foreign country that it's going to be fun, fun, fun all the time. I think a really important piece is that if you really want to experience what a culture is like you have to immerse yourself and see how the average person spends their time.

Onward was a unique experience in that it was able to give, even if it was just for two months, people who had been here before and had already experienced the travelling side of things, to then experience the living side of Israel.

M: Yeah, that's one of the things I loved about the program. And still in interviews for jobs that I've had since then, that is one of those formative experiences that I always come back to that kind of shaped part of the career that I went into. Is there anything you remember most fondly from the year of my trip (2013)? You were just pregnant with your twins.

S: [Laughs] I remember being on the bus, and I don't think I had told anyone that I was pregnant, right? I don't think you guys knew yet.

M: Not right away, no.

S: I remember we were on the bus on one of our trips, and I got so nauseous, I threw up. And I remember some people who were sitting in the front of the bus started whispering, "Did she just throw up? Is she ok? Is she pregnant?" And I was dying laughing in my head. I figured at some point over the summer I'm going to have to tell them because at some point I'm going to have a belly.

That was actually my first summer with Onward was your group. What was exciting for me was that the program hadn't existed in Haifa prior to that summer. That's one of the jobs that I got upon accepting the position with Onward. They had had programs in other cities in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv in other summers, but not in Haifa. So I was given this blank slate. They were like, "Here are these students coming. Find them jobs." And I was like, "OK!" I really spent a lot of that year researching what are the jobs in Haifa, what do these students want to be doing, and making those connections. By doing so, I really got to know my city so well. To know what kind of industry is in Haifa, to know what kinds of organizations, non-profits, schools, to get to know the neighborhoods, where everything is located, especially because I was also new to the city at the time.

I had only been there for the year leading up to that summer. So it was an amazing opportunity for me, it was very personal, that I got to know all of these places. People who grew up in Haifa their whole life don't know these places exist there. Why would they? I don't know. I don't necessarily know all of the industry where I grew up. It really gave me this amazing opportunity to delve deep into Haifa and get to know the city so well. It also gave me an opportunity to learn what students in America want to be doing here since it was the first summer, and in that way, sort of guinea pigs. From the company's side, what they're hoping to get out of the experience, from the students' side, what they're hoping to get out of the experience, and making that connection -- that's what stands out for me.

And I don't think everything went smoothly. I think there were issues and all different things, and that's the problem solving piece of the job too -- helping people figure out how to make the best of a situation, how to make things work.

M: Yeah, that trip was really, really special. Something I've said, too, to people from the trip who I still kept in touch with is part of that was because of you just being such a great guide through the whole process even when things didn't go smoothly.

S: Thank you.

M: Now that you’ve moved on from Onward Israel, have you maintained your connection with participants on the trips (other than me, or course) or the members of your former team?  

S: Yeah, Facebook is an amazing tool in that it allows you to keep in touch with so many people even if not actively, but somewhat passively. I am Facebook friends with many, many, many of the participants that came through the program. There have been a number of participants who have come back. While that may not be the main goal of the Onward program, but one of the underlying goals of it is that they build a deep connection with Israel and they want to come back whether it's for visits (which is great), for a sabbatical, for a time period of some point. Some students have come back and they call me up! It's great to hear what people are doing with their lives.

There are participants who have gotten married already. There are participants who have gotten careers in the fields that they had their internship in. There are participants from Onward that have made aliyah. It's fun for me to see my babies growing up. It's fun to see where people have taken the experience from when we were together and moved forward. If you ever come back, call me up! I love grabbing coffee with people and just catching up, seeing what people have been up to. I think that's been, for me, a big piece of the Onward puzzle, is that through Facebook and other social media where we keep in touch passively, but when people come back here.

Not just me, but I know people who have come back for a family trip and they get in touch with their old boss and they go out for drinks with their old boss. I think that's such a great thing also because it means that you have a deeper connection with the people, with the culture, with the community whose here. And not just say, "OK, I'll go to a hotel, I'll go to a museum, I'll go on this hike." No, "I'll go meet up with a former colleague, a former boss, we're going to catch up."

M: Alright, well, thank you so much Stef!

Life as an Israeli: Interview with Stef Part II

While Part I of my interview with Stef dealt with her immigration to Israel, this second part concerns Stef's experience living in Israel in terms of day to day life. Whether you are a frequent visitor to Israel or you've never stepped foot in it, her insights are informative of what it can be like for someone there, especially, but not exclusively, as a Jewish person.

Mariya: I know you lived in Haifa before and now you're in Jerusalem. What would you say are your favorite things about either one of those cities?

Stef: I think one of the best things about making aliyah and going straight to Haifa is that there isn't a big English-speaking-olim (immigrant) population. So it sort of threw us into the midst of becoming Israeli fast and hard. We didn't have a choice. We had to learn Hebrew if we wanted to socialize, we wanted to have friends, we wanted to get by. There are many places to make aliyah in Israel: Jerusalem is one of them, Tel Aviv, other cities like Ra'anana, Modi'in where there are huge English-speaking populations, where it's an easier landing, definitely. There you can have large social circles, where most services are in English, and most people choose to go that route because of the easy landing.

For us, we went to Haifa for Matt's school. He was doing a doctorate at the University of Haifa, but it was great. It was exactly what we wanted, exactly what we needed. We learned Hebrew fast, we integrated culturally, and we felt that Haifa was a really great place for that. Not to mention, there's the beach, which now that we live in Jerusalem we really miss the beach in Haifa since Jerusalem is landlocked. Haifa in the north is just so beautiful. It's green, and there are hills; we used to always go hiking on trips around the north; we loved being out in nature. There were hiking trails inside the city of Haifa, which was so fun. You can just walk off a main street and you're in the woods. It was great. We really loved living up north.

We came to Jerusalem for work and school. I always say one of the greatest things about Jerusalem is the weather. It's hot and dry in the day, but it cools down at night, whereas in Haifa it was hot, then hot, and more hot. And super humid, but in Jerusalem it's not so much. So we joke that that's best part, but there are other really great things. Obviously, historically, we love taking the kids to the Old City, and to the shuk (outdoor marketplace), and there's so many fun things to do here. While we still maintain a lot of friendships with Israelis, we also made a lot of friends with English speakers here, for better or for worse. We don't know where our future will be -- if we'll stick around here, or if we'll head back north, or if we'll be in a totally different part of the country. I think that for us, obviously, being in Israel is the goal, and it's great to experience different parts of the country and see what they have to offer.

M: Some people who have never set foot in Israel and only read about it in the news have this perception that life there is perpetually dangerous because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There are bombs flying everywhere, and you have to watch every step you take. I'd love to hear from your perspective, having lived there for eight years now, how has this conflict affected your life?

S: There have been times in Israel with wars and conflicts and it is dangerous. But there are times when I feel safer here than in the US. There have been shootings in synagogues and in schools, in public places. If you're a person of color in the US, it's a scary time. I look at the news in the US, and I feel the same way here as I'm sure a lot of people in the States feel looking here. Like, "Wow, I can't believe people are living there. Every day must be so scary." I have the same thoughts across the ocean looking in the other direction. I think what we see the news often amplifies what's going on at the extreme ends of society. Even in the midst of the most intense times, day to day life here in Israel continues. People don't think about that because why would that be in the news? People don't report it.

Since we've lived in Israel, we've been here for military operations. I have 6-year-old twins and when they were babies and we lived in Haifa, there was threats of rockets. I remember one night, in the middle of the night, I heard the Tzeva Adom, the Red Siren, went off, and then you have less than a minute to get to a bomb shelter. We had these infant twins and we were in our pajamas, all of a sudden there's this blaring siren, and we have to grab the twins and run into the hallway, and there are all of our neighbors in their pajamas and their babies. It was such a crazy moment, and it made me think, "Wow, this is our life. This is what we're doing." So there have been moments like that, but on a day to day basis, I wake my kids up, make them breakfast, take them to school, I go grocery shopping, and all of the boring things in life that everybody does everywhere. It feels like a very safe place in that way.

M: I appreciate that you mentioned both sides of it because it's true that the news wouldn't report a story that said "Mother wakes her children up and takes them to school." Have you done anything or know of any organizations that are trying to bridge this religious and cultural gap between Palestinians or Israeli-Arabs and the Jewish community?

S: I think that as student in university right now I'm in an interesting position because I think it's one of the most integrated areas of Israeli society where you have religious Jews, non-religious Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, people from all different backgrounds, international students, all in the same place -- in university. While it's not an organization that is actively doing anything, I do spend every day with a wide, wide, wide range of Israelis from all backgrounds who are all together studying.

I think from that place, it reminds me of what someone once told me that in order to make peace, we have to humanize the other. I think that a big problem here is Israel is that there is a lot of segregation. There are Jewish towns and Arab towns. Even within a city like Haifa which is a very integrated city, one of the most integrated cities in all of Israel, there are predominantly Jewish neighborhoods, predominantly Arab neighborhoods. While there is a lot of integration in the workplace and in public transportation, in terms of where people live there is still a lot of segregation.

Here in Jerusalem you feel it even more because it is a much more politicized city than Haifa. But for me, in my academic bubble, we're all kind of there learning art. Politics does play a big piece because I think people use art as a way of political expression, so politics does come up a lot in my program. It's coming from a place of opening up and speaking about our experiences and getting to know one another on a deeper level, which doesn't necessarily happen in other parts of society. So I feel lucky right now where I am. I have friends who live in Ramallah, I have friends who grew up in small Arab villages, and I have friends who are completely secular Jews who grew up in Tel Aviv.

Even sometimes in the religious and secular divide in Israel, people don't know the other. If you are Dati, if you are religious, you only really know religious people. If you are secular, you only know secular people. It's a great benefit of being in my program -- getting to know people -- and we have a common core, which brings us all together, which is art, which is what we're there to learn. It really does bring different aspects of Israeli society together.

THIS CONCLUDES PART II. YOU CAN FIND PART I IN THE PREVIOUS POST. STAY TUNED FOR PART III.

From American to Israeli: Interview with Stef Part I

When I interned in Haifa, Israel for two months the summer after my junior year of college, I got to know our leader, Stef. She was responsible for facilitating our experience in the program. Now, seven years later, we reconnected, and Stef shared a bit about her experience making the transition to Israel later in life. She is a mother of four kids: two 6-year-olds, a 4-year-old, and a 1-year-old. She is also currently an arts student at the Bezalel Academy of Art and Design in Jerusalem, which is her third time attending university. She is married to Matt who is an archaeologist, and they have been living here in Israel for eight years. Read on to learn more about her!

Mariya: What’s your aliyah (immigration to Israel) story? What prompted you to make this change in your life?

Stef: So I think the first time I actually thought about making aliyah was probably when I was 12 years old. My mom had a good friend, an Israeli woman, who worked as an ulpan teacher. She invited us to come spend one of our summers in Israel when I was 12 years old, and I actually lived at this old ulpan. Ulpan is where you learn Hebrew when you come here. It's sort of like an intensive immersion Hebrew program. We did it for a summer. It was us and a whole bunch of other families and people who had made aliyah. We didn't. We were just here to learn Hebrew and spend time with this family friend. So I think that was the first time it popped into my head as a possibility since we were surrounded by all of these other people who had made aliyah.

By the time I was 17 years old, I was really involved in youth group and Jewish summer camps. Israel was always a prominent event in my teen years. So the idea of living in Israel was always spoken about, and I did an Israel trip in high school. I really fell in love with the people and the country, and thought that this could be a place I would want to spend my adult years. I planned to come on a gap year program between high school and college, but it was in the midst of the intifada, the Second Intifada and my parents pulled me out of the program just before it started. So I went off to university. Y'know, my plan had been that I would do a gap year program, make sure it was what I wanted to do, stay, join the army, spend the rest of my life here. But that didn't happen.

So I went to university in Canada, and decided that I would try again for my junior year abroad. So I came for my junior year abroad for a semester, loved it, decided right then and there that I wanted to give it a shot living here, whatever that meant. I came back after I graduated and did my master's degree in Jerusalem, and I gave myself three years (it was a three-year-long degree) to decide if this is really what I wanted to do. If I really wanted to spend my life here and live here. It was kind of this dream that always was, but I didn't know in practical terms what it meant. So I gave those three years as my trial period. I decided that it was definitely what I wanted to do. I felt at home here, I felt that my future was here for so many reasons.

I went back to the US, worked for a few years, came back with my husband (we made aliyah together). So it was sort of a dream that was building for a long, long time until all the pieces fell into place.

M: Wow that's amazing that you already knew from age 12 that this is what you wanted to do. Did you feel, when you were dipping your toes into the possibility of living in Israel, that there was any element of culture shock?

S: I think for me the culture shock was more of a comfort. I grew up in Buffalo, NY, in a place where for my whole life my Jewish identity was something that made me different from everybody else. I was one of one, or possibly two, Jewish kids in my class. I went to a Hebrew school that had five or six kids in it. It was a very small Jewish community, where I was. Always the places growing up where I felt most comfortable was at Jewish summer camp, Jewish summer trips, youth group. Also, when I came to Israel, it felt like that environment of being in a Jewish country and all of the things that made me stand out as being different where I came from, culturally were normal here. And I think the culture shock was a comfort in the sense that: "Wow! I can go out to eat at all of these different places. I don't have to check labels at the supermarket. People are speaking Hebrew." Everything was just so amazing that all of the things that I struggled with my Jewish identity growing up were all of a sudden easier here. That's what stands out for me when it comes to the culture shock that it wasn't shocking, but rather this is where I'm meant to be. This is where I feel comfortable.

M: How does it feel almost a decade later to call yourself Israeli? Do you think you would ever go back to live in the United States?

S: I definitely feel Israeli, and I think the times when I feel most Israeli is when I go back to the US to visit. Then all of a sudden all of the things that have become normal for me here stand out when I go back there. Here, we are "Americans" in that we have accents and there are still certain cultural things that will always stand out. But I see us spending our lives here. My kids were all born here. My husband wants to spend his life here also. This is our home. This is where we want to be. You know, we'll always go back to the US to visit family and friends, but to live -- not.

THIS CONCLUDES PART I. STAY TUNED FOR PARTS II AND III OF THE INTERVIEW.

On Israel, Internships, and Relationships: Interview with Alex

One of the friends I made on my work abroad trip to Israel was Alex, a leadership consultant and author. She works with leaders, mentors, and coaches who are working on building their purpose-driven team of clients and employees. She helps them learn how to make a large social impact, mentor and develop a group of people, whoever that is in their niche, while also generating income. Since December Alex has been running her own business. It's definitely looked a little different with COVID, but it's allowed her to be totally virtual and work anywhere, which she appreciates. If you'd like to to join a community of leaders looking to improve their leadership skills, check out Alex's group We Build Killer Teams here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/webuildkillerteams/

Read on to learn about how our trip impacted her life both professionally and privately.

Click this link if you'd like to watch/listen to the interview: https://youtu.be/VA_fh4_vFYg

Mariya: What made you decide to join the Onward Israel internship program that fateful summer of 2013?

Alex: It kind of just attached to my Birthright trip. So I went to Northeastern University for school, and one of the summer trips that they were doing was the Northeastern trip to Israel with Birthright, and I really didn't want to stay for just two weeks. I was like, "Why don't I take advantage of the free ticket?" Since they allow you to stay for free. So what I ended up doing was two weeks of Birthright, I travelled alone for over two weeks, and then I did Onward Israel for two months.

M: Nice! And that was your way of kind of continuing to connect with Israel?

A: Yeah, and I think I didn't want to go home either [laughs]. So it was my way of being like let me have this incredible experience. It's basically paid for by Onward Israel, by Birthright, it was such a good opportunity for me to get to explore and it was literally a once-in-lifetime experience. I don't know when I'm going to have three months to do that again.

M: What did you end up doing for your internship in Haifa?

A: I worked at the University of Haifa and I did an internship in their Psychology Research Department. It was actually kind of interesting. They were were doing a study on acculturation with people who were immigrating to Israel from the US, Russia, and there was one more country, I think it was Spain. They did tons of interviews on what kids went through when they moved from those countries to Israel, so they did all of these recordings. So I was the one to watch all of the recordings, transcribe everything from Spanish, Hebrew, and English into this one transcript for them and help them analyze that. And it was sort of interesting because I was going through my own acculturation process and I got to hear about these kids who were adjusting as well. So some of it was boring like literally sitting there for hours transcribing, but a lot of it was really interesting.

M: That must have been a lot of work to transcribe all of those interviews. Were you transcribing from all of those different languages? How did that work?

A: At the time, since I had just finished my freshman year of college and I was coming from a modern Orthodox Jewish school where I was literally taught Hebrew for 16 years, so I could read, write, and understand it. If there was something I didn't understand, then I could look it up. I also minored in Spanish so I could understand a lot of it. And I speak English. So it was a good fit in that it was all of the languages I was decently proficient at in one study.

M: Did you find that it helped inform the career decisions you’ve made since then?

A: Yes, because I'm nerdy. I like to read, I'm very science-oriented, result-oriented, and I do like learning about research. The actual doing of the research was really boring for me. Like sitting there and assessing the results for hours, staring at a computer screen for hours - I could not get into it. So that did actually change my direction. I started to realize for the classes I took at Northeastern plus that experience that I'm not sure I want to go the research route. I want more of the human connection as well.

M: It sounds like you did get some of that with learning about the acculturation experiences. It's similar to what you're doing now with building teams.

A: Yeah, it's definitely similar in some ways.

M: What were your biggest takeaways about Israeli culture in life and work?

A: I think you were at this training they did about what are the differences between the Israeli workforce and the American workforce. I definitely found this to be true: they are very direct, very blunt, very to the point. Not just at work, but everywhere. So like I'd stand at the bus station and the old ladies would shove me to the side as they make their way onto the bus. I think how direct they are is very different from everyone here. And even in my experience building teams, everyone is terrified of having tough conversations, they tip-toe around issues - it's definitely not the same in that respect.

M: Yeah, I definitely saw the same thing. Even in a school culture where I saw teachers talking to kids they were very like, "I'm not sugarcoating anything for you just because you're younger! I'm telling it like it is!" which I kind of appreciated.

A: Yeah, I liked it.

M: Our leader, Stef, really tried to build that sense of community and appreciation for Israel. What are some of the most memorable moments or events for you that really deepened your sense of connection to Israel and other Jewish people?

A: I feel like she did a good job of letting us know what was available. We lived in Haifa, which is not a super touristy area, it's not like Tel Aviv. So there were a lot of people there who didn't speak English, it was definitely very different in that way. So she just did a good job of letting us know what was going on and helped us assimilate well.

One event that stood out to me was, and you were there for this, was the salsa events. The main square where we lived, they used to do these salsa nights. All the local people who lived there used to come and do that. I think it was free and you just showed up. It was so much fun!

I do feel connected [to Israel], my dad was born there, and I actually technically have Israeli citizenship too because he was born there. Besides that, I love the country and I love the people, and I love learning about the history, but I'm not sure I'm super passionate about it in general. Although I love going and I love everything about it. But it's really just like my family history. I got to go places where my dad grew up, there were things he pointed out that I got to go and see. That was sort of special too.

At the time that I was there, also, one of my cousins had her Bat Mitzvah. They came to Israel and I happened to be there at the time, so I got to take part in that. They did an incredible, special service on top of the largest mountain you can climb. I'm blanking on the name.

M: One of my cousins had his Bar Mitzvah while I was there, so I got to go to that too. That was a very different experience because they were Orthodox. And all of the women in the synagogue were behind this divider that had these small spaces that you could poke your eye through to see what was happening on the men's side. So I was watching the whole thing through these little cutouts, which made me think, "I don't know how I feel about this, but alright." But still it was cool to have that experience there.

M: Have you done anything specific in the past 7 years to sustain your connection to Israel or parts of Israeli culture?

A: I think the biggest reminder was that I bought a lot of things to put around my apartment. So I have different posters and different things I bought from the shuks, the markets, that I still have hanging up that remind me of it.

I think the biggest thing that the trip did for me was...I had travelled to vacation-y type spots, touristy spots with my family, but this was the first trip where I went not just to go on a vacation to relax, but to genuinely try to learn and understand a different environment, a different lifestyle, a different place. I mean I just loved that so much that I've just taken so many more trips that, again, aren't just vacation-y and relaxing, but really allow me learn and experience other cultures. So I think it empowered me in that way too. I was like, "Oh, I can do this!"

M: Yeah! What other trips have you gone on?

A: My boyfriend and I went to Iceland for two weeks and we travelled all over there, which was really really amazing! We went to England, we went to France. I feel like I'm missing a country too. There's definitely another place that we went to recently that I can't remember. We started to actually do research on where do people actually hang out. We wanted to get a sense of what this place is really about.

M: Awesome! So you and I developed our friendship over the course of the trip and sort of stayed connected when we got back for a while, but then because our lives got busy we became a bit more distant. Then we re-kindled our connection this year around January just before COVID-19. What prompted you to reach out again and what advice do you have to those who are looking to revisit or sustain those kinds of relationships?

A: Well number one, for the last four to five years my life was, chaos is the wrong word but, non-stop work. So I was literally working from 5am to 9pm six days a week. So it was less that it was a purposeful loss of connection and more that it was just me and I didn't have space for anyone with the point that I was at in my life. That was part of why I wanted to get control back of my time, I want to get control back of my lifestyle. Like I didn't even have time for my boyfriend. I was only seeing him nights and part of the weekends. So once I made the switch to starting my own business, which was end of December/January, I was like, "OK, who have I not talked to in years because I haven't even had the time to take care of myself? Now, who do I have time for?"

I guess I would say, one, it's important to make sure you can take care of yourself before you're reaching out to other people and trying to get set up. Anyone that you had a good connection with, they'll remember that and they'll remember those good memories. So I think like you remember the salsa lessons and you remember the fun we had together. There are definitely plenty of people that I reached out to in January that didn't get back to me or were offended that I didn't have time for them. But you win some, you lose some I think. The people who matter will get back to you and will take you up on it.