Dance and Music: Interview with Joh Part II

As a member of the entertainment class in Mali, Joh has made it his life's mission to share music and dance from West Africa with the rest of the world. In this part of the interview, he shares how he got involved with various companies as well as a deep knowledge of the instruments and dances that he teaches. They have fascinating legacies and continue to have an impact today in Western culture as well. 

Mariya: I remember going to see you perform back in January, which seems like forever ago now, with the Benkadi Drum and Dance Group at the JFK Library, which was such a wonderful performance! I'm curious to know, how did you get involved with that group? 

Sory Diabate:
Director of Benkadi
Drum & Dance

Joh: So the director and his wife - the director is one of my buddies. He's like my uncle in Mali. Our houses were just next to each other. There's only the wall between our houses. And we did everything together in Mali. We were in the same dance company in Mali, and all the companies he did, it was with me. Also, I was the reason why, I didn't bring him here physically, but I brought one of my students who fell in love with him and brought him here.

M: Oh interesting! So another love connection in that way.

J: Exactly! So when he created his company, he asked me to come help him. I have my own dance company, but I go help him sometimes. That's how I have a connection with them. A lot of the dancers also take classes with me. 

M: Cool! And I've read that you've also been a part of many other dance groups as well. How do you manage all of those different groups that you're a part of?

J: Yeah, see like I told you, here is the country of opportunity so I work with Malian people, I work with Guinean, Senegalese. So I work with anyone who is African and has a group and invites me. I even work with a Haitian dance company. Yes, Haitian-Creole Dance Company. Because life is a lesson - you have to learn. So even though I'm a master, but I'm still learning. I'm learning from so many different places. That's why I trying to get involved as much as I can with other people. If they invite me, I say yes. I want to be part of it. I bring my input and I learn something valuable, so we learn from each other. 

M: That's fantastic! Could you tell me a bit about some of the most common dances that you teach when you work with students?

J: Oh my God, there are so many dances. There are some dances that I call the dance of celebration like the "Di-da-di" like the one we did at your school. We have some dances that are for honoring people like "Kuku" for hard workers like fishermen. We have a dance called "Dansa," which is kind of like an initiation dance like a womanhood dance. We have "Gomba," which is the main initiation dance. We have "Soko," which is for little boys who get circumcised, so we save money for those people. We have "Kakilambe" to welcome the rain and all of that. There are so many dances that I teach, and I have my own creations as well because for me, if you've been doing something for more than 10-15 years, even if you don't master that thing, but you have be able to just be inspired and create some of your own stuff based on that. So I've created a lot of dances based on the traditional ones.

M: Interesting, thanks for sharing that. It seems like these dances are done at specific times of the year. How does that work?

J: Yeah, some of them are done at a specific time of year and some can be done anytime. They can be done for any circumstances. Like for example, "Di-da-di" is a dance of celebration. It can be performed anytime you want. "Dansa" like I said, it was basically for womanhood, but now they can do that for any type of ceremony as well. But something like the "Kakilambe" that's done for really only special occasions. "Tansolé," for example, you might only get to see once or twice a year. But now you can see it anytime. So things are changing! Before people did those traditional dances at specific times, but now they do them whenever [Laughs].

M: Yeah, that's cool! I’d also love to learn more about the drums. What types of drums do you play and how do they differ from each other?

J: Yeah, so many different types of drums. Let's start with some of the well-known ones. There is one called Djembe, and the Djembe is the one you play with your hands. It's made of out of wood, skin and string. "Djembe" like the word says, it means "come together in peace." Long ago we used to make the Djembe out of antelope skin, but now since it's hard to find the antelope, we find the goats. And we sacrifice the goats and we use that type of skin for the drum. A long time ago, the Djembe belonged to what we called the blacksmith and the blacksmith was well-known as the master of art. He's the one that would do initiations.

Djembe drum

The first time they had the Djembe, it wasn't made for musical purposes. It was made for initiation purposes. We have three steps of initiation for kids, by the way: from 1-7, 7-14, 14-21 [years of age]. So each seven years marks one initiation, so you have to go through all of those three steps in order to be a man or to be a real woman. During that process, the master will teach you about the drum vocabulary. And not only that, I just told you what the drum is made out of, so it's not like you can use any type of wood to make a Djembe. You have to get it from a special tree in the deep forest, carve it, and make a shape of the Djembe. The skin - you sacrifice the goat and you take the skin. Through those two, you are doing spiritual work.

The master will also let you know that the Djembe can also be used for healing as well. Even here, now, they're using the Djembe for music therapy.

M: Oh, interesting, I didn't know that!

J: Yes, because some people went to Africa and you know, Western people always try to dig in, and they found that this is helpful because of the power of the Djembe.

Also, before we had access to the telephone, let's just go with electricity, which meant that we didn't have telephones, microphones, things like that. People used to travel from village to village to bring a message. When we started doing drum vocabulary, we understood the drum vocabulary. So we said, "Since this drum is so loud, why can't we use it for communication?" Because everyone is supposed to go through that initiation, so everyone will understand that drum vocabulary. So they're gonna say, "If you heard this, it means this." This is how we started communicating with the Djembe.
We have another instrument you play with a stick. That one is called Dundu. Some people call it Dundun, but it's the same thing because that one is from many different places.

The Djembe is only from the Malian Empire. When you're talking about the Malian Empire, at that time there weren't countries, there was just the Empire - Guinea, Senegal, Ivory Coast, Burkina Faso, Niger, all the way to Mauritania - all of those were part of the Malian Empire. That's why some people call it Dundun and some call it Dundun because it comes from any different places. The Dundu is made out of wood, string, and cow skin, so it's different [from the Djembe]. That's why you use it with a stick. The Dundu has skin on both sides, the Djembe has a big hole in the bottom, so they're different.

But the Dundu does not belong to the blacksmith. It belongs to the griot, the jeli. The griot, the jeli, and the blacksmith both belong to the class of entertainment. They got together and said, "Oh, you have this, we have this. I think if we had this to this, it would give another color, it would give another beauty." That's when they started putting the Dundu and the Djembe together. Playing the Djembe by itself, they found out something was missing. Playing the Dundu by itself, they found that something was missing. They played them together and they found, "Hey, we're making a family now!"

Dundu; Dundun drum

M: The Dundu, because it has cow skin on both sides, you hit it from both sides as opposed to from the top, right?

J: Yeah, you can hit it both ways, but usually we put it vertically and you hit it from the top. But you can use it both ways too. Like in the "Di-da-di" you play it from the sides.

There is another one, a tiny one you put under your arms called the Tama, but Western people call it "talking drum." All the drums talk [laughs]! And I also play a Senegalese instrument called the Sabar. So it's different from the Djembe and you play that with sticks as well.

M: Ok, very cool! And I saw you've been posting some videos of you playing with your son, which is really great to watch. You're passing on those traditions to the next generation.

J: Exactly, yes.

Stay tuned for Part III of the interview!

From Mali to Boston: Interview with Joh Part I

Since going remote, Joh has unfortunately been unable to continue teaching my students African dance the way he did at the start of 2020. While remote class in dance cannot compare with the in-person experience, I reached out to Joh with a request for an interview instead. He kindly obliged and I spoke at length with Joh to learn more about him, his views, his profession as a dance and drum teacher, and the culture in which he was raised. Joh revealed that his real name is Sidi Mohamed Camara and Joh is his nickname. He grew up in Bamako, the capital of Mali in West Africa. To get a deeper sense of his story, Joh shared the following:

In Mali we have two classes: the class of kingdom and the class of entertainment, so I'm from both classes. My mom is well known as a jeli, which western people call griot, and my father is well known as a hòròn which western people call a noble. And that is basically my background. (If you wish to learn more about this, check out this link.)

Mariya: What was your experience growing up in Mali? Are there any memories in particular that stand out?

Joh: Yeah, so many memories I remember from growing up. So the first time I started dancing and drumming was at the age of 5. That's when I really started. I remember my family used to put me in the middle of the crowd in the ceremony and I would just either drum with my little drum or I would just be dancing.

When everything really started was through the organization Mouvement Pionnier. It is a group of young people that teach about cultural stuff and also social stuff as well. So when we have important people like the president or other people coming from overseas, we go to the airport to welcome them. It's sort of like the Boy Scouts here, but more than that because we do a lot of social and cultural stuff.

Also, when I used to play soccer, that's how I get the name Joh. So I definitely remember that. I used to play defense and the people in my town used to refer to me as the best defense player. Joh has two meanings: either "the ball stay with me and you go" or "you stay with me and the ball go." So that's how I got that name and it became my artistic name as well.

Source: https://www.mapsofworld.com/answers/geography/what-are-the-key-facts-of-mali/ 

M: Very cool, thank you for sharing that! So you already shared a bit about how at 5 years old you started dancing and drumming. How did you then take that and decide to teach it as a profession?

J: Like I said, my mom is well-known as a jeli and the jeli are well known as historians, and they are the ones who keep the traditions alive. So they are teachers -- traditional teachers. This is one of the main jobs -- to educate. So I grew up like this learning that way. It goes from the oldest to the youngest. They switch from generation to generation, and this is done orally. That is how I started and this is how I'm really doing it because if you ask me to write it musically, I don't know. If you ask me to play it musically, that I can do very well. So this is the way we learn -- orally.

M: So this is a natural part of the culture and your upbringing. Interesting! What brought you to Boston?

J: First, before I came to Boston I was in New York City. I came to the States through the cultural exchange. My dance company came here through a cultural exchange. From there, I decided to stay and just develop my talent. And from New York, I had a friend in Providence, Rhode Island, so we used to come there and teach at Brown University. And my friend there used to come to Boston because he had regular dance classes at the Dance Complex on Wednesdays. I used to come and help him to do that, and after we would go back to New York. We would come Tuesday, we would teach at Brown on Tuesday, then Wednesday we would come to play for him for his class, then Thursday we'd go back to Brown to teach, and Friday we go back to New York. So we were just going back and forth between New York and Rhode Island. Finally, he invited us to just come stay with him, and we come and we stay in Rhode Island.

So from there, you know, one time he was going back to Mali, and he asked me to sub for his class in Boston. So that's when I started teaching his class and I met my ex-wife through that. So that's how I came to Boston. I moved to Boston through marriage. I found that Boston was my place and that's where I am.

M: How does it compare with the culture in Mali? 

J: This is very interesting. The cultural difference is deep, so deep that I couldn't even tell you all of it, but I will tell you some of the important parts. One of the important parts is the "human being's way." How we can be together, especially in terms of community. In Mali, we live in the society of sharing. And in the States, we live in the society of accumulation. That's the biggest difference. We have this belief, "the more you give, the more you receive." So in Mali, everything is done by the community. I can give you an example: when you have a party, you don't need to invite people. People are automatically invited because they are already part of your family. Everybody's family there. But here, everybody is just locked inside, you know, in their room. They're not really a friendship society. That's one of the biggest issues.

And also one of the biggest things I find about Malian culture and American culture is here everything is about me, me, me, me. Like if you want to talk to somebody, they'll say, "Mind your business." In Mali, there is nothing like that. Like if you have a child, it's not only your child. Your child belongs to the society. Your child belongs to the community and the community is there to raise your child with you. So if you child does something bad, anybody in the community has the right to discipline your child. You can't do that here. That's one.

Number two. When we talk about education, education here is based on school. Right? But for us, it is based on the way you raise your child at home. Education starts from home and not the school. That's why the teachers have a lot of problems here because the parents just send their kids here with all of those problems and the teachers are in trouble, and there is not much you can do. But in Mali, the education starts from the house, so once you've been educated there, they send you to school. But you cannot go to school without being educated from home. So when you do that, and you go to school, you have to behave yourself. If you don't behave yourself, you've been taught already. If you do this bad, the teacher has a right to punish you. See? So you know that already because you learned that from home. So you know if you do something bad in school, there are consequences too.

There are a lot of good things here too. So if you say bad things, you also have to say good things. There are a lot of freedoms here, but that freedom is kind of like destroying people. Freedom is good, but too much freedom can ruin your life.

M: Interesting, what you do mean by that?

J: What I mean by that is people here just do whatever they want. We're not supposed to do whatever we want, we're supposed to do what makes sense. There is a difference between what makes sense and what I want. What I want might not make sense. But here we are allowed to do whatever we want if it's not against the law. But there are a lot of things that are not against the law, but they are against human nature. We have to understand that. That's the part we're missing.

M: Or people will take the law and interpret it in their own way to justify what they're doing.

J: That's right. I'm about to get to that too. Like the law sometimes prevents people from being with each other. What is the law? The law is some rules that people are meant to follow. We make the law. People make the law, right? If people make the law, the law is trying to prevent us from being with each other at some points. I can tell you that the teachers here are not allowed to discipline the kids here. If you do that, the kid's going to tell you, "We're gonna sue you."

M: Well, I think that depends how you define "discipline." There used to be a time when it was considered appropriate to hit a kid with a ruler on their hand. We've come a long way since then, but I think there are ways to "discipline" without physical punishment.

J: Yes, you have to understand that there are so many ways to discipline. Sometimes it can be physical, but not abuse. Physical does not mean abuse. That's a thing that people don't understand. Like I've been disciplined and I discipline my kids. Like one time, we disciplined our son, and we went to school and they said, "No, here you cannot do this. Blah blah blah" and I said, "I understand the law here, but the law has to respect who I am, too." I have a right to teach my kids the way I want them to be. The law cannot prevent me from the way I raise my child. That's the thing here. I love my kids so much. The law cannot love the kids more than I love my kids! So how are they gonna teach my how to be with my kids? That doesn't make sense. They are preventing me from being with my kids and not helping me to be with my kids.

So disciplining physically, doesn't mean like hurt the person. There are so many ways to discipline. You can talk to the person and when you talk to them they listen. Some people, when you yell at them, that's when they hear. Some people when you spank them, that's when they understand. There are so many types of people and the ways they can understand. If you use this technique and it doesn't work, you have to use a different technique. Here, the best technique is talk to them nicely. No! There are so many ways you can try because some people learn differently. So that's how too much freedom is not good. Teachers are scared now to discipline the kids. They have a limit. Once you have a limit there, you say, "OK, I'm done." So you give up! Or there are other ways you can try to help, but the law prevents you to do that. If the law prevents you to do that, you are at the bottom line, so you cannot go more than that. So who's gonna be the loser? You see what I mean?

I totally understand because I had this discussion with so many people. They told me, "No, it used to be a different way. Teachers used to discipline the kids, but some teachers abused." And those people are crazy. I'm not for that. How can you hurt the kids? How can you do that? Maybe those are people who never had kids, or never had love from their parents, or they are sick mentally. That's the way I see it because kids are so lovely. They are a gift. They are a blessing. So how would you hurt the kids? You have to put things in balance. Just like don't give everything to the kids, but don't take everything away from them.

M: I think you're right. I think there needs to be a balance in how we set boundaries. Depending on the culture where people come from, they have different ways of setting boundaries. Some parents are better at it than others. But the law is kind of deciding for everybody, and there's only one way to do it. And if you came from a different place, and you grew up with a different culture, your way is just wrong.

J: Exactly! It's not like in Mali we don't have respect for law, it's just that those kinds of laws don't really apply. Those are the biggest differences. There are many things here that you are just not going to see there.

M: Are there any good things that you like about Boston?

J: Yeah, so many good things that I love. Here, one of the things I noticed like if you have money or don't have money, if you're sick, you'll get help. That type of help is deep. We don't have that in Africa, especially in Mali. Where we are now, if you don't have money, you might die if you get sick. They don't even have a place to put you in the hospital. They need money.

Also, in time of help, people help here a lot. This is something I get confused here sometimes. Life really matters here for people. They're not gonna let you die so easily. On the other hand, they don't value the human being. You talk about life because somebody is human. Sometimes there isn't really a balance there.

M: It's tricky because I think in Mali there is more cohesion of ideas for how to live, how to treat each other. Whereas in America, because you have so many cultures from so many different places that come with their own idea of how to do things, it's hard to balance all of those differences.

J: Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff too. For example, unemployment stuff. The government can help people that way, but we don't have that in Mali. I mean the community is there to help you, but if the community doesn't have it, the government is not there for you.

Oh, and no matter how old you are here, you can still go to school if you choose to. That's really important. But in Mali, at some age they say you're done [laughs].

M: [Laughs] You've learned everything there is to know.

J: They're not gonna encourage you. I would say this is the country of opportunities. This is one of the many reasons I decided to stay here. This is the country where you can really realize your dream if you go for it. 

M: Do you find that there is a large Malian community in Boston?

J: There are not that many Malians here. There are some, but not that many. In Rhode Island, there are a good number of Malians there.

M: And do you find that because of that small or large number of Malians it is easier to maintain those parts of your culture that you want to keep?

J: There are good and bad things about this. I'm gonna be honest. If you have a lot of Malians in one place, there's gonna be a lot of jealousy. Competition. That is one thing that I really deplore, but it's true. It's so crazy because we came to this country and we're supposed to use the foundation of the culture we came with, but most who come here will lose that. Like I told you: in Mali, we grow up with a community of sharing, but here, since we are in a different place, we lost our part. It became like a competition like "me, me, me." So if you have a lot of Malian people in the same place, it's not that good anymore.

M: Interesting. So it's almost better to be more spread out than just be in the same place.

J: Yes.

Stay tuned for the next part of the interview!