Dance and Music: Interview with Joh Part II

As a member of the entertainment class in Mali, Joh has made it his life's mission to share music and dance from West Africa with the rest of the world. In this part of the interview, he shares how he got involved with various companies as well as a deep knowledge of the instruments and dances that he teaches. They have fascinating legacies and continue to have an impact today in Western culture as well. 

Mariya: I remember going to see you perform back in January, which seems like forever ago now, with the Benkadi Drum and Dance Group at the JFK Library, which was such a wonderful performance! I'm curious to know, how did you get involved with that group? 

Sory Diabate:
Director of Benkadi
Drum & Dance

Joh: So the director and his wife - the director is one of my buddies. He's like my uncle in Mali. Our houses were just next to each other. There's only the wall between our houses. And we did everything together in Mali. We were in the same dance company in Mali, and all the companies he did, it was with me. Also, I was the reason why, I didn't bring him here physically, but I brought one of my students who fell in love with him and brought him here.

M: Oh interesting! So another love connection in that way.

J: Exactly! So when he created his company, he asked me to come help him. I have my own dance company, but I go help him sometimes. That's how I have a connection with them. A lot of the dancers also take classes with me. 

M: Cool! And I've read that you've also been a part of many other dance groups as well. How do you manage all of those different groups that you're a part of?

J: Yeah, see like I told you, here is the country of opportunity so I work with Malian people, I work with Guinean, Senegalese. So I work with anyone who is African and has a group and invites me. I even work with a Haitian dance company. Yes, Haitian-Creole Dance Company. Because life is a lesson - you have to learn. So even though I'm a master, but I'm still learning. I'm learning from so many different places. That's why I trying to get involved as much as I can with other people. If they invite me, I say yes. I want to be part of it. I bring my input and I learn something valuable, so we learn from each other. 

M: That's fantastic! Could you tell me a bit about some of the most common dances that you teach when you work with students?

J: Oh my God, there are so many dances. There are some dances that I call the dance of celebration like the "Di-da-di" like the one we did at your school. We have some dances that are for honoring people like "Kuku" for hard workers like fishermen. We have a dance called "Dansa," which is kind of like an initiation dance like a womanhood dance. We have "Gomba," which is the main initiation dance. We have "Soko," which is for little boys who get circumcised, so we save money for those people. We have "Kakilambe" to welcome the rain and all of that. There are so many dances that I teach, and I have my own creations as well because for me, if you've been doing something for more than 10-15 years, even if you don't master that thing, but you have be able to just be inspired and create some of your own stuff based on that. So I've created a lot of dances based on the traditional ones.

M: Interesting, thanks for sharing that. It seems like these dances are done at specific times of the year. How does that work?

J: Yeah, some of them are done at a specific time of year and some can be done anytime. They can be done for any circumstances. Like for example, "Di-da-di" is a dance of celebration. It can be performed anytime you want. "Dansa" like I said, it was basically for womanhood, but now they can do that for any type of ceremony as well. But something like the "Kakilambe" that's done for really only special occasions. "Tansolé," for example, you might only get to see once or twice a year. But now you can see it anytime. So things are changing! Before people did those traditional dances at specific times, but now they do them whenever [Laughs].

M: Yeah, that's cool! I’d also love to learn more about the drums. What types of drums do you play and how do they differ from each other?

J: Yeah, so many different types of drums. Let's start with some of the well-known ones. There is one called Djembe, and the Djembe is the one you play with your hands. It's made of out of wood, skin and string. "Djembe" like the word says, it means "come together in peace." Long ago we used to make the Djembe out of antelope skin, but now since it's hard to find the antelope, we find the goats. And we sacrifice the goats and we use that type of skin for the drum. A long time ago, the Djembe belonged to what we called the blacksmith and the blacksmith was well-known as the master of art. He's the one that would do initiations.

Djembe drum

The first time they had the Djembe, it wasn't made for musical purposes. It was made for initiation purposes. We have three steps of initiation for kids, by the way: from 1-7, 7-14, 14-21 [years of age]. So each seven years marks one initiation, so you have to go through all of those three steps in order to be a man or to be a real woman. During that process, the master will teach you about the drum vocabulary. And not only that, I just told you what the drum is made out of, so it's not like you can use any type of wood to make a Djembe. You have to get it from a special tree in the deep forest, carve it, and make a shape of the Djembe. The skin - you sacrifice the goat and you take the skin. Through those two, you are doing spiritual work.

The master will also let you know that the Djembe can also be used for healing as well. Even here, now, they're using the Djembe for music therapy.

M: Oh, interesting, I didn't know that!

J: Yes, because some people went to Africa and you know, Western people always try to dig in, and they found that this is helpful because of the power of the Djembe.

Also, before we had access to the telephone, let's just go with electricity, which meant that we didn't have telephones, microphones, things like that. People used to travel from village to village to bring a message. When we started doing drum vocabulary, we understood the drum vocabulary. So we said, "Since this drum is so loud, why can't we use it for communication?" Because everyone is supposed to go through that initiation, so everyone will understand that drum vocabulary. So they're gonna say, "If you heard this, it means this." This is how we started communicating with the Djembe.
We have another instrument you play with a stick. That one is called Dundu. Some people call it Dundun, but it's the same thing because that one is from many different places.

The Djembe is only from the Malian Empire. When you're talking about the Malian Empire, at that time there weren't countries, there was just the Empire - Guinea, Senegal, Ivory Coast, Burkina Faso, Niger, all the way to Mauritania - all of those were part of the Malian Empire. That's why some people call it Dundun and some call it Dundun because it comes from any different places. The Dundu is made out of wood, string, and cow skin, so it's different [from the Djembe]. That's why you use it with a stick. The Dundu has skin on both sides, the Djembe has a big hole in the bottom, so they're different.

But the Dundu does not belong to the blacksmith. It belongs to the griot, the jeli. The griot, the jeli, and the blacksmith both belong to the class of entertainment. They got together and said, "Oh, you have this, we have this. I think if we had this to this, it would give another color, it would give another beauty." That's when they started putting the Dundu and the Djembe together. Playing the Djembe by itself, they found out something was missing. Playing the Dundu by itself, they found that something was missing. They played them together and they found, "Hey, we're making a family now!"

Dundu; Dundun drum

M: The Dundu, because it has cow skin on both sides, you hit it from both sides as opposed to from the top, right?

J: Yeah, you can hit it both ways, but usually we put it vertically and you hit it from the top. But you can use it both ways too. Like in the "Di-da-di" you play it from the sides.

There is another one, a tiny one you put under your arms called the Tama, but Western people call it "talking drum." All the drums talk [laughs]! And I also play a Senegalese instrument called the Sabar. So it's different from the Djembe and you play that with sticks as well.

M: Ok, very cool! And I saw you've been posting some videos of you playing with your son, which is really great to watch. You're passing on those traditions to the next generation.

J: Exactly, yes.

Stay tuned for Part III of the interview!